Saturday, October 4, 2008

Speed-Up Wolvie Team Construction: Redux

This will be a sketch for now...

In light of what's been discussed about the viability of Wolvie/Doom as a duo, I'm gonna look at some of the possible options for the third slot. Honestly, I'm gonna go through the motions with some 'options' here-- hey I might find something, but I'm pretty much sold on Tron.


Psy: Psy/Doom looks like it can actually chip also. Block strings + Rocks, b.HK rolls xx Teleport if it looks hairy, re-pin. For Wolvie, assist is great for working in free Launcher into Falling Resets. A lot of room to play defensively with a solid AAA. Overall, your Psy probably should start 1st and play defensive/conservative and let Wolvie worry about chip.

Strider: This is actually pretty tempting, but it dies from the get-go because you've got 2 dudes who need all your bar. Thinking that the only way to play is start Wolvie, and work non speed-rushes into Rocks, glitch HK cross-up Tag Strider xx Orbs. Then use Strider to 'stretch' your meter. At which point Strider can Tag Wolvie back in with 1-1.75 bar and get ~2 activations at endgame. Too hypothetical.

Gief: I'm definitely going to run this squad as a secondary. As Gief gets more exp. versus Gods, I might even main it. In a lot of ways it's sounder chemistry bc its more like a 2-Way interaction, where you have two solid point options. Gief can start and just use Doom to get unblockable SPD shots while building bar, then dump Wolvie. As of now though, Gief needs Tron too much.

He's only on here for Defense-Up and Life-Up. A strong candidate for a counter-pick when Wolvie's having a good day. W/o looking at it too much at all, Cactus/Doom is gonna be broken anyway.

Tron: Looks like that's it for 'options' actually. For me it doesn't get any better than Wolvie/Doom/Tron. Where Wolvie is just burning bar without thinking with Doom backing him, Wolvie/Tron is an option for a 0-2 bar mode of play, where Wolvie's concentrating on precision mixups + Tron while building meter. A 1-character piece of chemistry, and about as gung-ho as that's gonna get, although you still have 2/3 of Team Z when Wolvie gets dropped-- who wants to use either of them as long as Wolvie is alive.

Draft Day:

I'm pickin'-- DUN DUN DUN.... Amingo P. "Cactus-man" Cactussman. I just suprised myself actually. Every part of me wanted to pick Tron, except the part that said, "Hey this is supposed to be funnn." Now I just have to figure out how to make this work. Probably will start Amingo. Doom is gonna be straight cheapin' it. This team's gonna live forever.

Thursday, October 2, 2008


Stealing a few of my posts in Wolvie/Doomadooma thread and jumping off with some observations on this badass Logan. The more I look at what he can do, the more I think he's impossible to block him IF you do your homework and create double- and triple-option setups that maximize hi-lo shots and manage stun times on top of that. A lot of finegalin', but IMO will be worth it I think.

I was playing Wolvie today, and when I picked Mag later on, I literally was missing tri-jump ROM because I was an input ahead the entire time. Mr. Logan is FASSSSSST.

Basics (what he can do):

As Shoultzula pointed out, Wolvie has a Non-Guardcancellable speed-up stun infinite-- his dash startup is so quick that speed up dashing LK, LK (and about any other chain you can think of), can repeat xN until you run out of juice.

What this means is that Wolvie can do a couple key things:

1.) link chain normals free until he decides to go hi-lo, or drop assist, or qcb+P warp, etc. Better yet, he can combine his hi-lo's into the blockstring-- more on double- and triple-option Wolvie in a later post.

2.) create trap patterns with assists by linking chains to assist then back to chains.

So he gets to create easy pressure that maximizes what he can do to get a hit without a tri-jump or double-jump to fall back on.

Mobility Tricks:

Short Dash
or vampire wave dash:

Shortening the dash with down cancel or LK vs style seems very useful so far bc i started getting WHOMPED by timed normals sometimes and runnin into psychic assist calls from fullscreen. LP could just as easily be used but i picked LK since I claw it out jap style. And as essential as maintaining proximity is, I'm finding success with waiting it out once i've trained them to look for those tiny openings (like a trap team can do) and baiting the response.

Dash LK back and forth is pretty funny lookin, kinda like IFC storm lp's on speed. Done fast enough you can tag them on the way in and tag them on the way out as well. Good luck w/ hit confirming those though :] .

When you have them cornered dash back LK should hop you up and over sweeps and low hits as well. Don't know how reliable, but i've utilized it once vs. commando sweep, dash back in combo death.

Dashing back cr.HK while in speed-up is pretty messed up looking too-- it creates a stationary version of his lunging kick. Not sure what you can do with that as a stationary hitbox. Hella style for doing that xN.

Jap Infinite:

as seen here:

its just [ standing LP, cr. LP, walk forward ] xN

-you can end it anytime with an air chain into assist (Bubble here, but Tron is a big splash into rings. They can block the last one or two depending on how they land, but you remain in the plus)

-you can also call a bubble and HK -> air combo into bubble

-you can reset with a rep of s.LP, cr.LP, db. HP to switch sides. this lets you toss another assist out and re-up

-quick enough to get a couple reps on assist then HK launcher and make your escape

-nice basic spd-up attempt bc even on block its causing that stun

I'm thinking this is the tougher infinite, but more practical in terms of reset and more importantly that it uses less jabs per rep yielding that longer hit counter before dizzy.

SPD-Up Dashing HK Properties:

Dashing HK is messed up when Wolvie is juiced up. When you do a dash HK, his sprite crosses up temporarily because of the dash momentum carrying over (AFAIK that's why). This lets you do some funny things with it.

- you can call an assist or do a tag as if you were facing the other way.

- you can do an auto-SJ that crosses up into a wrong-side air combo.

If you master the assist timing, you can create ambiguous mixups with that. Also lots of resets are possible out of the basic speed-up infinites.

Theres a really ugly reset with Tron assist as well:

Dash in LK+Tron, LK xx Spd-Up, as the first rings hit, dashing HK will let you cross-up through the rings and recover quick.

You might also be able to cross up people coming out of a roll, but I haven't tested it yet.

Slick Solo Resets:

From Launcher:

... sj. LP, LK, LP, LP, fall behind them, HK, they bounce, you x-up dash, relaunch, repeat

From Standing Inf:

... speed-up dashing df.HK, crossup magic series, falling crossup series, land crossup, relaunch
... spd-up dashing df.HK, crossup Tron tag, Tron Rock xx Wolvie tag, relaunch

From Jap Infinite:

...F,F dash, HK (cross-up), AC

Speed-Up Dashing Cr.HK Properties:

Crouching HK is broken in Speed-up Mode also-- if you dash and do cr.HK deep against a blocking/walking back dummy, your momentum will carry you through to the other side. It equals instant sandwich pin, and you recover from cr.HK as/almost as fast as it takes them just to turn around, let alone block. I'm not sure, but its a good candidate for auto-block if you don't give enough space between the x-up and your follow-up. This is FAR better than is qcb warp, if a little harder to execute.

It's very easy to set up from the block-stun infinite, just dash very close cr.HK after a solid rep.

A couple of hypothetical applications:

- glitch cr.HK and look for assists, snap-out, helper infinite

- glitch cr.HK + Doom to start midscreen trap reps

- let them out of Jap infinite, glitch cr.HK + Tron, resets

Wednesday, October 1, 2008

Why Unblockables Work (???)

Lately I've been focused on why UB's happen, so I analyzed three of them to find out the common ground:

Sent Spit beam: projectile normal, causes Twitch-untwitch-twitch style guard, dummy must land or wake up into UB, proper set up *seems* to have high success rate among top players

Doom Crouching Roundhouse: sweep normal, no apparent Untwitch, 100% setup following successful UB

Chun Stomp: jumping normal, no apparent Untwitch, 100% loop seems possible from a connected UB

As far as success rates, I can't vouch for the Sent UB as I haven't worked with it a whole lot. However, I've noticed an odd similarity between Doom's and Chun's. With each, I have the most success when I create a set pattern to follow in between UB attempts.

For example:

With Chun I do jumping d.HK close and deep, let Chun recover and fall to the ground, hit s.LP immediately following landing, hold forward as the LP recovers, walk up to the dummy, and repeat another close and deep unblockable stomp. When I get one UB, I've consistently gotten 3-4 more in a row using this method.

With Doom I do d.HK, doesn't matter what the range is, then wave dash back, then towards and d.HK unblockable again. I can repeat UB's 100% until I mess up the dash timing. I've done a bunch of other easy Doom patterns with the same results.


After weighing all of the individual characteristics of these Unblockables, I've concluded that there is one specific nuance occurring that ties all three together (along with most, if not every other unblockable).

As far as I can tell with what I know about the game, these are unblockable because the game engine doesn't see a hitbox during part of the move's animation. With Sentinel this is easy to see with a jumping-away Dummy-- because of the aforementioned "untwitch" in the twitch-guard caused by the beam.

You can't see this happen with Chun or Doom, but I believe that the same issue is happening in the eyes of the game engine, except instead of a twitch-untwitch-twitch pattern, these normals simply sometimes start in "untwitch" state by animating the hit-portion of the move without first displaying the start-up (that causes twitch-guard).

Observe that with most normals, there appears to be a very quick twitch, and then untwitch while the normal is still out. Twitch guard has to be caused by a specific piece of data, whether its related to the presence of hitboxes, or attached to a specific number of frames specific to each move is a mystery to me. However, when you look at a regular normal, versus something like Tron HK Rock which causes twitch guard all the way through [Edit: not exactly true-- see below], even when hitbox data is not active, it presents an interesting conundrum. Specifically, it causes twitch throughout even though if you jump into the rock before it's thrown (when Tron holds HK to keep rock above her head), you will not get hit.

The question now remains: Why are these only unblockable part of the time?


[These numbers need to be fixed, but the concept stands]

Let's consider a curious part of the Marvel engine. The Dreamcast version (and at this point I think arcade as well) does NOT run at 60 fps. Instead it runs at a steady 72 which is translated down to 60 by the introduction of a frame skipping cycle that drops every 4th frame. So 15 times a second, there's one less frame than there should be.

This is the same phenomenon that makes Joo's 100% Sequences necessary for Programmable Pad combos to work flawlessly. These PPAD sequences are basically just a method to find where in the frame cycle you are at a given point. Pretty genius, as Magnetro pointed out to me and I'm only now really understanding why.

Full Circle:

From a cold start, i.e. outside of one of my patterns, I feel like I'm getting a random UB about 25% of the time. It's a hunch and a rough estimate; I can't really say because I'm not a computer and I can't test for this properly. I guess the only way to test is to try it once per training instance, then restart and try again. Do that a hundred times and get back to me (:]) .

However, what I believe this to mean is that one in four times, you'll execute a potentially UB move (let's say Chun Stomp) and the key point of animation (tied to the start-up) will land on the skip frame. When this happens, no twitch is registered, the game reads only the hit frames, and the dummy gets bwapped. It's my belief that any consistency in positioning or anything else being a factor in the move being unblockable is really just based in a habit, conscious or otherwise, of falling into a pattern once the first UB is achieved. After all you can hit it 1/4 times, and once a pattern is established, its feasible.


I look at it like this: 1/4 is a perfect example of a nice, round musical tempo. Almost any drum beat you can think of is rooted in this, or a subset of this, and there are plenty of musicians that can manipulate, hear, and play notes with far more precision than 15/60th of a second.

Using this knowledge, I applied the idea of staying in a set tempo after landing Doom's UB, and was able to consistently get it with scary precision. Like 100% precision. There are really two things to pay attention to in order to do this-- first check whether it hits as a UB, then stay mindful of where in the cycle you are at from that point forward. What that basically means is that when you hit cr.HK, thats the first beat, and you just gotta make sure to dash (or do anything) in rhythm, and its a cakewalk to get the UB again.

What I think this is actually doing-- and this is a trip -- is creating a manual 100% Sequence that you can follow. More truly, I guess the Sequence is really the fact that the first UB hits (you know you're at the right spot of the cycle), and the rest is just the manual sequence to manipulate the cycle.

Problems and Possible Solutions:

1.) Tron HK Rock could be seen as a projectile throughout even though its a normal first, followed by a projectile. The Rock could be its own sprite. This would take away the uniqueness of that twitch scenario and take out some of the argument behind twitch being related to anything other than active hitboxes.

2.) There are plenty of 1 Frame Normals that aren't unblockable, ever. Mega Man, Magneto, Spd-Up Wolvie, Shuma and others all have them, and they aren't unblockable. However, I DO finally have a theory as to why this might be:

Every move has a Start-up, Hit frames (with hitbox data), and Recovery. Logic says that these should be separate. Since when did MAHVEL follow anything resembling a system of logic? After all, Start-up, Hit, and Recovery are all the same thing, with the 'difference' coming in the presence of a hitbox entering in at some point. They would overlap freely if it weren't for that.

What if Capcom was savvy to this presence of UB's? And of course they are-- every game is plagued with a handful, and they try to fix it for the next installment. What if they simply overlap the frames that cause twitch guard with the hit frames? Maybe this would solve the problem. Or even simpler, what if they took all the obviously applicable 1 frame normals, and told the game to 'look' for the frame cycle and then insert a buffer frame as necessary? It could be that Doom, Chun, Sent and others just slipped by without being tagged as being dangerous.

All this is just coming from my brain-- I don't know how games are programmed, but this sounds plausible to me so who knows.


Its MAH-ble BAYbee. These UB's work, so we can always just enjoy 'em for the scary little nuggets of death they are. It's my own fault for being a curious motherf***er. I lose sleep over this so you don't have to.

Very Special Thanks to Joo (and by extension Magnetro) for paving the way for anything technical Marvel!!! Respect to Risunomeijin (for introducing me to the Chun UB) and Shin (!!!) for being all-around Chun Gods. Also big thanks to Mixup, Shoultzula, Philopia, JudgeRL and everyone else who's put up with my incessant babble/brainstormed with me regarding this stuff at all hours these past few days, and taught me a thing or two about how not to be a scrub.


Tuesday, February 5, 2008

Inventive Flow Updated

Magnetro has updated with some color edit information and some sprite rips/art.


Risunomeijin has graciously offered to get the 'Japanese consulate' (aka a friend who plays and has some godlike linguistical skills) on board with the translation project, so there might actually be some progress in the near future.

Japanese Vidness

Been pokin' around lately for some good examples of current low-tier goin on in JP and theres one really good example in the batch of vids by way of Joo up on Preppy's site. It's "20080101-03_iida_vs_nobuyuki". These guys know what low-tier is about-- they just are having a blast.

1st matchup is a mirror Sim/Collosus/Iceman. Dhalsim's playing like its ST locking down with classic ground. Overall a really functional team. One trend I've definitely picked up on is that certain players will adjust their high-tier playstyle with a character to something thats closer to low-tier. Here Sim runs away about 5 seconds at the end but he's already established dominance. I've also seen dudes run Magnus on Capture assist and other tops taking a back seat, so its cool to see Low-tier as a state of mind rather than you know, ima take all your money.

2nd match is Sim/Colossus/Iceman vs. Colossus/Shuma/Guile. Oh and Shuma is invisible. Lol. Non stop giggle-fest with these guys.

3 is SilSam/BBHood/Doom (pink stuff) vs. Sim/ORed/Anak. Doom pink recall is too fast. But Sim is lookin more and more acceptable in low marvel.

4 is SilSam/BBHood/Doom vs. Spidey/Sabertooth/ORed.

Another good vid is "Sunahebi_vs_Nobuyuki".

1st: Hulk/CapAm/Colossus vs. Guile/Colossus/Charlie. Good ground +Frame work. Dash feints and trickery abound.

2nd: WarMach/Ruby/BBHood vs. WM/Akuma/Iceman. They're just playing around with calling assists in the air while filling the screen with bombs and missiles. BBHood solo lookin good with lots of charge time management.

3rd: Thanos/Doom/Hulk vs. Guile/Jugg/Iceman. Thanos/Hulk has moves. I wanna see bubble assist though.

4th: Venom/Spidey/Marrow vs. Sim/ORed/Anak. Sitting just outside range and whiffing a high priority hit is a legit low-tier tactic.

5th: Morrigan/Jill/Ruby vs. Colossus/SilSam/Guile. Ruby blue wave xx switch is rad.

Monday, February 4, 2008

Tron Rings Properties

Lately I've been focusing in on one of the more random properties of Tron Proj. assist. Namely that at a certain timing, a Cross-up hit followed by an immediate Tron call, land, *HIT ... will cause a 'blow-through' where Tron Rings push the other character back to the original side if the '*HIT ' is properly timed. Very cool because the better they are at blocking, the more likely they will cross themselves up. Actually I can only confirm this with Gief/Tron out of memory, but it should work with anybody plus Tron.

The timing on the blow-through hit is so tight that its easy to turn it into a big mind game, and once you've run through your option tree enough times it becomes viable to randomize it and just freestyle from what you react to. One thing I've noticed lately is how much of a factor muscle memory is to seemingly god-like reaction time-- where its a matter of how quickly you can guess what comes next and not simply the manual quickness of your inputs.

Weak little postup but nobody reads this shit anyways.

Sunday, February 3, 2008


Gief Double Fierce

Versus certain characters (Mag and Cable sized) Gief can do a jump-in forward+Fierce Punch then link into a rejump f.FP for a quick double fierce. Don't know the specific trick to it but its a hard link because it only works at a very specific point where Cable's and Mag's hitboxes are particularly wonky. I'm pretty sure there must be a small frame window within Mag/Cable's getting hit animation where the hitboxes overlap. It works off of a cross-up splash too so when I get it figured out it means Gief/Tron can lay down the hurt with something like x-up Splash, Tron, jump away f.FP, Tron rings, etc. Its basically corner combo damage anywhere onscreen.


Mixup posted a gnarly Wolvie SJC combo, something like: dash in magic series, cr.HK sjc LP, LK, LP, HP. I play Wolvie backed with Spiral Proj. and dump an assist call into the dash series giving them something to think about as they're getting up. Probably enough time to activate Speed-up and go to town. And since Spiral is off screen and the knives are blocked you can recall knives or dump Tron to set up infinite 50-50.

I'm having second thoughts on Wolvie and Doom compatibility. Yes, its easy to lose your rocks with screen shift and Wolvie doesn't need chip to get a hit, but that said a little chip never hurts. Some lockdown pressure means that you can get some breathing room and spot that point when its time to go apeshit. Everyonce in awhile I pick Wolvie/Spiral/Doom and get an air combo ending in FS with knives out then call Doom rocks as they wake up into Spiral knives. It's gimmicky but IMO Spiral/Doom is a good balance because they are reserved where Wolvie is gung-ho.

Doom and 'Rush-away'

There's a pretty bumpin' Doom thread on SRK right now and thats making me want to master the canceled cr.HK SJC rushdown trick. Seems like it would put Doom over the top if its mastered-- he gets mad runaway and big guard stun exploited rushdown. I'm big into the idea of the characters that can freestyle between rushing and keepaway because if you're able to tune into the pacing of a match, you get to pick out when to throw in those mix-ups that turn the tide of a match. It's a completely different type of mental layer than something like Magneto RTSD. I don't play Storm so I'd jump at the chance to run these antics with Doom.